You know...whether it is a national group or individuals discussing an issue...liberals resort to name calling. Can't we have a civil discourse about an issue? The same thing happens in my town on a local blog.
We ought to be able to discuss this logically. Maybe we could even learn from one another.
Now, my point is, why is this issue continuing when it could easily be resolved? If transparency is a goal of Barry's, then let's have it!
Comments (41)
It already has been resolved. There is no more detailed birth certificate. Those records were scrubbed by the Hawaiin Department of Health back in 2001. That won't satisfy the conspiracy theorists though.
http://www.starbulletin.com/columnists/kokualine/20090606_kokua_line.html
Born identity
Birth certificate styles adjust to fit times and regulations
By June Watanabe
POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Jun 06, 2009
(Single Page View) | Return to Paginated View
Question: What is the state's policy for issuing a "Certification of Live Birth" versus a "Certificate of Live Birth"? My first, second and fourth children received certificates, but my third and fifth children received certifications. Why the difference? The certificate contains more information, such as the name of hospital, certifier's name and title; attendant's name and title, etc. The certification has only the child's name, date and time of birth, sex, city/island/county of birth, mother's maiden name, mother's race, father's name and father's race. Why doesn't the state just issue certificates? When did it stop issuing certificates? Is it possible to obtain certificates for my third and fifth children?
Answer: No, you can't obtain a "certificate of live birth" anymore.
The state Department of Health no longer issues copies of paper birth certificates as was done in the past, said spokeswoman Janice Okubo.
The department only issues "certifications" of live births, and that is the "official birth certificate" issued by the state of Hawaii, she said.
And, it's only available in electronic form.
Okubo explained that the Health Department went paperless in 2001.
"At that time, all information for births from 1908 (on) was put into electronic files for consistent reporting," she said.
Information about births is transferred electronically from hospitals to the department.
"The electronic record of the birth is what (the Health Department) now keeps on file in order to provide same-day certified copies at our help window for most requests," Okubo said.
Asked for more information about the short-form versus long-form birth documents, Okubo said the Health Department "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate."
"The birth certificate form has been modified over the years and decades to conform to national standards and models," she said.
Okubo also emphasized the certification form "contains all the information needed by all federal government agencies for transactions requiring a birth certificate."
She added that the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized the state's current certification of live birth "as an official birth certificate meeting all federal and other requirements."
The issue of what constitutes an official Hawaii birth certificate received national attention during last year's presidential campaign. Those who doubted Barack Obama's American citizenship called the copy of the Hawaii birth document posted on his campaign Web site a fake.
Asked about that document, Okubo said, "This is the same certified copy everyone receives when they request a birth certificate."
We found a discussion of "the truth about Obama's birth certificate" on the Web site FactCheck.org -- www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html.
The organization describes itself as "a nonpartisan, nonprofit 'consumer advocate' for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics."
It says a "certification of live birth" is, in fact, a short-form official birth certificate. Information included in the document might differ from state to state.
Write to "Kokua Line" at Honolulu Star-Bulletin, 7 Waterfront Plaza, Suite 210, 500 Ala Moana, Honolulu 96813; call 529-4773; fax 529-4750; or e-mail kokualine@starbulletin.com.
Obama asked for a copy of his birth certificate. Hawaii issued him what they issue everybody who asks for a copy of their birth certificate, the Certification of Live Birth. He displayed it on the internet, just so everyone could see it. What he displayed contains all of the information necessary to prove citizenship, including that he was born in Honolulu.
So, yeah, I have to wonder why this issue is continuing when it was resolved for any rational person months ago.
And I see plenty of name-calling by both liberals and conservatives.
"liberals resort to name calling"
That's usually what happens when the same question gets asked over and over and over after a reasonable answer has already been supplied.
Q: "Say, buddy, what color is the sky?
A: "Blue"
Q: "Yeh, but what's the REAL color?"
A: "Blue"
Q: "That's what Obama would have you BELIEVE. What's the REAL color?"
A: "Look up. It's BLUE."
Q: "He's paid MILLIONS to get you to believe that. But think about it: Why would he pay that much IF the sky is SUPPOSED to be Yellow? Hmmmmmmmm?"
A: "Idiot."
Q: "You must be a liberal. (Looking elsewhere) Hey, Buddy!! What color is the sky?"
creeksneakers:
The link to the article you posted above will get ignored by the birfers. It's too close to a truth that they consistently deny. They've made up their minds that Obama has something to hide in plain sight.
Back in October, Hawaii's Dr. Fukino made some disgusted comments about the number of requests for Obama's BC. She basically said, "We have his BC. State law doesn't allow us to give it out to just anybody. But to say he wasn't born here is ludicrous."
Birfers translated this to say, "We have his BC. But we can't tell you what's on it because it would embarrass us". Because they'd already made their minds up, the clear meaning of Fukino's comments was tangled to conform to their beliefs.
The same thing will be applied to Okubo's comments above. Her official comments about the State of Hawaii's policies about COLB's and BC's will get ignored. You watch, there will be more comments about Obama's COLB not being the "long form BC", even though Okubo has said, "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate."
The myth of the "vault copy long form with the attending doctor's signature" will not go away.
blackmonrikker:
I agree. Its probably a psychological problem.
"Its probably a psychological problem."
Don't confuse a "psychological problem" with stupidity. Call a spade a spade.
Regardless of what form the state now uses, the officials said they have the original on file and he wrote in his book that he found it in his grandparents' papers. So he has a copy. Why doesn't he just release it or by legal power have Hawaii release a copy of theirs?
BTW, Hawaii officials did not confirm that what is posted on the net is an authentic certificate and others indicate it is fraudulent.
"others indicate it is fraudulent"
Those people are wrong. He posted what the State of Hawaii sent him. That being the case, those "others" ought to be suing the State of Hawaii.
Second, he didn't have to post a thing. Not a damn thing. No law says he had to. He went out of his way to try to solve your fears. You went out of your way to call him a liar for doing so. Under those circumstances, he's doing the right thing by ignoring you birfers.
http://james4america.wordpress.com/2008/10/27/from-dreams-of-my-father/
I mention “Dreams of My Father”, first published in 1995 when Obama was first starting out in his political career, because in a brief citing, he mentions one item that has haunted him for months- his birth certificate.
On Page 26 of “Dreams of My Father”, Obama writes:
“I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school,”
It is also rumored that William Ayers wrote that book.
what's your point? the whole birfer movement is based on rumor. Instead of arguing the points in this thread, you've chose to misdirect into yet another rumor?
Why?
For a subject that is a simple request for records, fanatical posting at posters who ask for transparency is what you get here, stone walling and cover-up about a standard every day normal routine request.
Show you BC and School Records Barry.
No one can break through the denseness of the obama worshipers.
They really do worship this guy
Did you want facts. I was just making a point that he supposedly he saw his real birth certificate when he was younger. Not a 2007 laser printer one.
Facts:
- Our Founding Fathers used the Law of Nations to write the U.S. Constition and the Declaration of Independence
- There are definitions in the Law of Nations, one being - Natural-Born Citizen
Vattel in Bk 1 Sec 212, states the following.
§ 212. Citizens and natives.
The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.
(notice - parents who are citizens) Obama's Father was NOT
- John Jay letter to George Washington
The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 [Farrand's Records, Volume 3]
LXVIII. John Jay to George Washington.3
[Note 3: 3 Documentary History of the Constitution, IV, 237.]
New York 25 July 1787
Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise & seasonable to provide a a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expresly that the Command in chief of the american army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.
- Our Founding Fathers put an Article in the Constition the only put a Natural Born Citizen to be president and Vice President
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
To me the time of the Adoption is the Law of Nations.
http://polarik.blogtownhall.com/2008/11/22/obamas_born_conspiracy_obamas_bogus_birth_certificate_exposed!.thtml
The birth certificate posted on FactCheck and other various sites are forgeries. It takes a while to down load the site because of all the pictures.It is very extensive research on Barack Hussein Obama II fake birth certificate.
Kandis:
Just because Obama saw the birth certificate when he was a teenager doesn't mean he hasn't lost it since then.
I'd like to see your evidence that the framers used a definition of natural born citizen from a book about laws of other nations. It doesn't make sense to use the definition of another country when American law at the time said anybody who was born in America, regardless of who their parents were, was a natural born citizen.
The US Supreme Court held up the any parent standard in US v. Kim Wong Ark. That case is the controlling authority on the subject.
John Jay said the president shouldn't be a foreigner. He doesn't say anything about the president's parents.
Here's a link to US v. Wong Kim Ark. If you read it, you'll see the majority found pages and pages of precedents which held up the any parent standard.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=169&page=649
carpenturr: "For a subject that is a simple request for records, fanatical posting at posters who ask for transparency is what you get here, stone walling and cover-up about a standard every day normal routine request.
Show you BC and School Records Barry.
No one can break through the denseness of the obama worshipers.
They really do worship this guy "
Actually, I don't worship him. I'm not even sure I agree with him on most things. But I support his right to stay within his rights. You are demanding something from him that (1) he has already supplied and (2) you have no legal right to see.
I keep asking for one of you birfers to cite a law which supports your demand. You cite the Constitution. Broadly. I say he has supplied a valid BC. You say, "Not to MY satisfaction." I say, "You don't have STANDING to make that claim, only McCain and Clinton have that right".
You go silent.
Why?
BTW, "transparency" is a campaign slogan, not a law. Since it's his slogan, he gets to define it.
blackmonrikker wrote:
BTW, "transparency" is a campaign slogan, not a law. Since it's his slogan, he gets to define it.
=====================================================
Unbelievable
There is not going to be any transparency from this Administration.
"There is not going to be any transparency from this Administration."
And that surprises you how? He's just as savvy as any other politician. He'll define what he wants to be transparent. And what he doesn't want to be transparent will stay hidden. Again, transparency is a slogan, not a law.
When you come up with the first shred of evidence against him that will hold up in court, I'll join you in demanding transparency. But you seem to want to use transparency to gain discovery. Why should he accommodate you? If he did, it'd be a stupid enough move so that I'd call for his removal on grounds of incompetence.
You are just here to argue with posters blackmonrikker
No one said a word about being surprised.
No one is ignorant enough to think you care about transparency anyway.
Deceit and lies are not clever.
Stonewalling and scams are not clever.
Natural law will bring the truth out anyway.
Nothing is covered that will not be revealed
"You are just here to argue with posters blackmonrikker "
I'm not arguing with you. I'm presenting you with alternative ideas. If someone didn't challenge your ideas you would just go off and continue being wrong about things. This way, at least someone has pointed out the truth to you.
You present nothing
"you present nothing"
I'm not really responding to anything. Your ideas have a 100% loss rate in the courts. I'm only here to tell you why.
We all know why
You are doing nothing but trolling this site just to attack posters
The birthers don't have standing to sue. The constitution left the power to certify presidential elections to Congress. The constituion doesn't assign any certification powers to the courts. Birthers have no standing to sue because the courts don't have any standing to rule.
File a thousand cases. You'll get the same result every time.
"We all know why
You are doing nothing but trolling this site just to attack posters"
Somebody has to set you straight. It may as well be me. The game doesn't come on until 19:30 EST tonite, so that leaves me about six hours of rectifying...
Who is trolling who? The birthers are all here to disrupt in the first place.
carpenturr,
Have you complained about phylmike34? He's cut and pasted the same USJL plea for funds into 20 separate threads. At least all my comments are unique and address specific ideas or questions.
The INS once raided a place at which I worked. The head agent interviewed everyone at the company. If he felt that they were an illegal alien he had them taken to anaother room.
When the head agent interviewed me I told him that I had a dual citizenship. He asked me what the other country was and when I answered him he had someone with a gun on their hip escort me into the room after calling me dirty names.
The owner of company was right there watching all of the inteviews. 30 minutes later I was let out of the room with no apology from the INS agent.
The story made the local papers and within 90 days the INS agent got demoted to some lowly job at the INS. I got go keep my dual ciizenship.
I think all government employees should be screeed to insure that they too are American citizens just like I was.
And along with a real birth certificate,let us see employment records,education history,passport application, cia or fbi security clearance, for all the top secret info he will be seeing. Maybe a marriage license, Illinois bar membership. Cases handled, won or lost doesnt matter. All the records that a normal,natural borm American would be proud to produce. probably just a silly thought
"probably just a silly thought "
Yeh, it is. Post yours. Better yet, post the law which requires either of you to post that info. Just because he's president doesn't mean you're entitled to that information. If he offers it, fine. If not, it doesn't imply anything other than he doesn't think you need to know. In either case, he's within his rights.
kandis1105,
You might look up Chester A Arthur, 21st President of the US. His father was Irish, and was not a US citizen at the time Arthur was born. By precedent, your argument that both parents need to be citizens is disproven.
skip_jcksn,
I'm pretty sure the FBI has already done all that. I certain they aren't going to share that information with you.
Mainly because it's none of your damn business.
carpenturr1,
How many topics have you started on this same subject? How many have you seen on this subject? How many of them have anything to do with the purpose of this site?
Since the answer to the third question is probably zero, I feel safe in describing you as a spammer.
Particularly since all of the birther topics are based on lies, innuendo, fraud and NO FACTS.
Attacking spammers is a net positive social good.
100 percent incorrect
Twitchy wrote:
"kandis1105,
You might look up Chester A Arthur, 21st President of the US. His father was Irish, and was not a US citizen at the time Arthur was born. By precedent, your argument that both parents need to be citizens is disproven."
His father was a citizen when he ran for office, quit spamming the board with ignorance Twitchy.
Arthur was a natural born citizen.
v. naturalized by law.
He was born an American Citizen.
(unlike the obama)
Chester Alan Arthur Born October 5, 1829
Sworn in July 2, 1881, after Garfeild had died.
Why don't you people learn a subject before you come and spam the board Twitchy?
A "natural born citizen" would have to be a citizen at the time he was born, not 14 years later, when Arthur's father was naturalized. At least try to present a consistent legal theory.
And, since Obama was born in Hawaii, as proven by the BC that everybody in the world has seen by now, he was born an American citizen.
So stop lying to people.
Sorry, that should have been: A "natural born citizen" would have to meet the requirements for "natural born citizen" at the time he was born, not 14 years later, when Arthur's father was naturalized.
BTW, carpenturr1, I'd like to see your long form BC and school records. Just because I don't believe you're an American citizen and have any business on this site. Or that you're real, in fact.
dandapper111,
Oh, and Polarik is a proven fraud.
LMAO.
Obama's 'birth certificate' not acceptable in Hawaii?
Even state requires long-form document for some eligibility, identification issues
Posted: June 07, 2009
4:10 pm Eastern
© 2009 WorldNetDaily
From the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands website
WASHINGTON – The Hawaiian certification of live birth Barack Obama posted on his campaign website and distributed to select news organizations as proof he was a "natural born citizen" would not be accepted as a "birth certificate" even for some Hawaiian state government eligibility issues, WND has learned.
The investigation follows a Honolulu Star Bulletin column Saturday, which quotes a state Department of Health spokeswoman as saying the state's current certification of live birth is recognized "as an official birth certificate meeting all federal and other requirements."
The website of the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands, however, states clearly the certification of live birth touted by the Obama campaign, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs and a host of other Obama defenders is not acceptable as a form of identification to qualify under this program.
As WND has reported, certifications of live birth were widely issued to Hawaiians born in foreign countries in 1961, the year Obama was born.
Are you motivated yet to join the billboard campaign and clear up the air of mystery surrounding Barack Obama's constitutional eligibility to serve?
The Star Bulletin column goes on to report: "The issue of what constitutes an official Hawaii birth certificate received national attention during last year's presidential campaign. Those who doubted Barack Obama's American citizenship called the copy of the Hawaii birth document posted on his campaign website a fake."
However, Obama's "citizenship" was never the question raised during the campaign or after the election. The issue raised by WND has consistently been that Obama failed to prove he was actually born in Hawaii and thus constitutionally qualified to become president as a "natural born citizen" – which requires that the birth took place in the United States.
The qualifications for the Hawaiian Home Lands program require a certified copy of a standard birth certificate – also known as the "long-form certificate" filled out in the hospital and including details such as the name of the hospital and the attending physician.
"In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green," the qualifications state. "This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL."
According to Hawaii's Department of Health spokeswoman Janice Okubo, the state only issues "certifications" of live births since 2001 when the health department went paperless. It is only available in electronic form, she said.
"At that time, all information for births from 1908 (on) was put into electronic files for consistent reporting," she is quoted as telling the Star Bulletin. "The electronic record of the birth is what (the Health Department) now keeps on file in order to provide same-day certified copies at our help window for most requests," Okubo said.
She did not explain how those needing a standard long-form birth certificate to qualify for programs such as those offered by the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands or to establish proof of eligibility to be president could be fulfilled. She said the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized the state's current certification of live birth "as an official birth certificate meeting all federal and other requirements." She did not, however, cite any specific rulings, and the Supreme Court has not taken up the issue of whether the certification of live birth would qualify a presidential candidate as eligible under the "natural born citizen" clause
Many of members of the public commenting on the Star Bulletin column raised similar questions:
"I'm fifty years old and I need to apply for a passport," wrote one. "So I scan some representation of COLB onto my Facebook page. If I take my laptop to the DMV, can I just open my laptop to show my web page to the clerk who will then verify my citizenship and issue me a legal passport? I'm sorry but some documents need a paper trail."
"To be president you need to be a 'natural born citizen,'" said another. "That means you are born in this country of 'parents that are citizens.' Note that both 'parent' and 'citizen' are plural. His father was a British subject and, yes, under the laws of both the United States and the UK at the time [when] he was born, Obama's citizenship was passed by descent of the father. These are the facts. We have laws and no one is above them."
"There seems to be a great deal of secrecy surrounding this whole situation," said another. "I've read that he has three legal teams keeping his info private. He has also had all his college records sealed. So this is transparency and change? Why all the mystery?"
Additional controversy over where Obama was born came when the woman the president says is his paternal grandmother, Sarah Obama, claimed to have been present at her grandson's birth in Mombasa, Kenya.
Joseph Farah, WND editor and chief executive officer, launched a national billboard campaign last month in an effort to keep the issue before the American people. The billboards, being leased around the country, ask the simple question, "Where's the birth certificate?" Farah is asking the public to support his campaign with donations. So far, more than $75,000 has been collected.
Last week, CBS, the largest provider of outdoor advertising in the country, announced it would refuse requests for space for the campaign. But Farah says CBS' refusal to lease space for the campaign will not hinder it.
"There are plenty of other billboard companies willing and eager to take our money," said Farah. "The only obstacle to this campaign is raising the money necessary to make it truly a national phenomenon."
The billboard campaign followed one launched months earlier to collect the names on an electronic petition demanding accountability and transparency on the issue. So far, that petition has gathered nearly 400,000 names.
The campaign got a boost last week when WND White House correspondent Les Kinsolving asked Obama's press secretary, Robert Gibbs, why the president wouldn't release his birth certificate. Gibbs' response was covered live on C-SPAN and by Fox News Channel and others – excluding CBS.
It was the first time any member of the press corps has publicly asked a member of the administration a question directly related to Obama's constitutional eligibility for office as a "natural born citizen."
Congressional hearings were held to determine whether Sen. John McCain was constitutionally eligible to be president as a "natural born citizen," but no controlling legal authority ever sought to verify Obama's claim to a Hawaiian birth.
Both the petition and the billboard campaign are part of what Farah calls an independent "truth and transparency campaign."
The first sign to be posted under the campaign, a digital, electronic one, is up and online on Highway 165 in Ball, La. – the result of a donation by the owner. In addition, based on the heavy volume of financial donations in the first days of the campaign, WND was able to commit to leasing three more standard billboards – one in Los Angeles, another in Orange County, Calif. and a third in Pennsylvania.