OpenGov - Open Government Brainstorm

This basically exists.. Its called sales tax

Sounds like a flat tax to me. I'd be interested to know how the distribution % is created. (for simplicity's sake let's say 10%) 10% of someone who makes $10,000/year and spends all of it on living would be $1,000 equaling 10% of their net worth. However, someone who makes $1million/year and spends $200,000 of it would pay about $20K in taxes. Which is only 2% of their net worth. You can see how this model would make it more difficult for those at the bottom to get ahead! But there certainly would be incentive to get there.

Of course this could be corrected by a tiered consumption tax, that somehow distributed the % based on an increase in spending.

Sales tax does indeed exist but only at the state level. It is not used as the sole form of revenue for both state and federal. Therefore, we are getting squeezed (taxed) at both ends -- our earning and our spending. Please choose ONE. Ha!

Creating, managing and regulating a distribution system of any kind would require a large federal and state revenue entity. Ideally, this tax proposal would dismantle or at least downsize the IRS, strip the IRS of it's police powers and make revenue collection a simple accounting job -- not an enforcement job.

I do understand your concern, however. Perhaps certain basics could be excluded from taxation the way some food is now. This is just a basic concept that still needs creative input for implementation. All suggestions welcome.

Fair Tax is the way to go.... currently we are being taxed on our production. The more you produce the more you pay.

How about no tax.

The government can create its own debt free money to spend on the things it needs.

U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 8.

Look it up.

Choosing which tax to use on the American people is a bit like choosing what size club to get beat with.

Fix it!

Here's how: www.moneyaswealth.blogspot.com

Alternatively, we could ask the states for money and let them figure out the details.

its actually regressive this way. poor spend greatest amount of their income in USA -wealthiest the least.

What this person is describing is the republican platform of 2007 the "Fair Tax System" and it is a horrible idea. It places far to much of a burden on the lower end of our society.

Taxes are the price of citizenship. Taxes are pooled to governmental organizations to promote and fund institutions, infrastructure, security, and ideals that we the individual people cannot fund ourselves. Taxes are paid for the greater benefit of all Americans. This was the original intent of taxes. Progressive taxation was designed to be fair at all levels of income, such as those citizens who prosper less pay less and those who prosper more pay more. This distribution of taxes was designed to place most of the burden on the wealthy, who are generally more innovative then the have not’s. Tax breaks for the wealthy in my opinion, is un-American, because the system was designed to be fair. The poor can not pay higher percentage of income taxes for they have very little and higher taxes are more burdensome. The poor and middle class must be protected from higher taxes for they are the backbone of our country. Should the monetary equation become too unbalanced in favor for the wealthy elite, then the middle and lower classes will feel the pain in less expendable income which would slow the economy and plunge the country into recession or depression; this is a self replicating cycle.

It sickens me to see Republican puppets constantly decrying the need to reduce taxes on the rich during a period of two occupations. It is our patriotic duty to pay taxes, to fund our government which in turn helps our fellow Americans in times of prosperity and in times of need. Since we pay taxes, we should also have a voice in government. The institution of elections of those passionate citizens who stand before us and cite their desires to pass laws for the good of us all, is what defines our society. But when our politicians ignore their constituent base, then the people must organize to recall or elect those who are more responsive to the will of people. Citizenship has more duties than simply paying taxes. Citizens must keep a watchful eye on their leadership and write to them often to express their desires.

New Way to Fund the Central United States Government

Step 1) Abolish the Federal Reserve Bank.

Step 2) Prioritize all new currency creation to the United States Government.

Step 3) All interest on funds loaned out by the United States Government is the property of the Federal Government

Step 4) Interest on funds issued by the Federal Government could be used to:

a. Pay down the National Debt

b. Fund Medicare, Social Security, single payer health care

c. Replace/phaseout federal withholding taxes; no more federal income tax system

i. Decrease or eliminate federal income taxes on citizens

ii. Maintain current levels of income taxes on corporations and businesses. The distinction between businesses and citizens is:

1. Businesses are an artifice

2. Citizens have innate rights

Dear kdtroxel,

Just because a person voices an idea that has been voiced by another, does not make that person a puppet. Perhaps I just like the idea and think it's worth debating. (To be honest, I was not aware of the Fair Tax, though I know it has been idea floating around for more than a decade).

This open forum is an opportunity for Americans to communicate and debate issues of governance. In earlier times we would have done this around a table at the local pub over a good beer or two. We could have looked each other in the eye and argued and yelled and walked home drunk with our arms around each other. Today, we do it online across continents. It's not quite the same and requires an even higher level of civility.

Please keep the tone civil, respectful and open-minded. We need ideas from all sides theses days. The old ideas aren't working -- from the right or left. In fact, the entrenched concepts of left and right are becoming more out-moded and detrimental to progress every day.

A hard as it might be, let's throw off the past arguments and ideologies and start fresh. LOOK, now, in present time, at the problems in front of us and -- together -- hash out a response.

I'll buy the first round.

If the consumption tax does not apply to tourists who visit the USA, I agree. These people don't beneficit of government services and remember what our founding fathers said: "No taxation without representation"

queen_victoria_21,

Good point. There are obviously many details yet to work out. Thanks for your input.

May be the only thing to save American product production.

This would put American product production costs equal to China's.

This is a regressive tax. In other words, the burden would fall disproportionately on the poor and least on the wealthy who can best afford it. The effect would be to take from the poor and give to the rich.

If you don't think a company is tacking on your income tax to the current price of whatever your buying you have no business discussing economics.

Go run a business and you will find you must put the entire cost of your employees including all the income tax into the product or service you are selling.

Everyone already pays this tax.

The reality is this:

1. The government doesn't have a job. It makes money by taking it from you. Therefore, GM, socialized medicine, prescription drugs for grandma, AIG, public education, etc. is paid for by you and me.

2. Tax the rich or businesses doesn't work. Businesses (and the wealthy) really do not pay taxes. If I sell milk for $3 per gallon and you increase my taxes by 50 cents per gallon, I will now charge $3.60 (yes, I have to administer the tax). You and I pay all taxes.

3. Consumption taxes are very heavy already and we still need income tax due to our societal spending habits. We are deficit addicts.

4. Quit thinking that government paid = free. If you were unwilling to pay $1 for $1 worth of healthcare, are you ready to pay $1.60? See #1 and #2 above.

Consumption taxes, VAT, Fair tax are not fair taxes at all, sounds more like pay off money to the mob. Two people trade something to help each other then a third party says they have to help him or he will hurt them. Not very fair I would say. I would have a resource tax. I would tax people on the resources thay use up, destroyed, or any thay keep for thier private use. The resources of the earth should be shared by all and if someone use up, destroyed, or keep any for just thier private use thay should pay the rest of us for those resources through a resource tax that can be use to pay for a fair government that helps everyone and any money left over can be rebated back to the rest of us. Since the rich use the most resources thay would pay the highest taxes. If you reclaimed resources you can get a tax credit, like cleaning up a river or recyling trash.

To dedvaveandpets:

This a tax made by government to control people's life. This "green tax" would penalises rich and everyone knows (basic economics principle) that taxing rich is penalising everyone.

So, for the poor, I suggest tax exemptions on essential products.

What economics principle holds that taxing the rich penalizes everyone? I thought taxing the rich provides public wealth for the benefit of everyone while slightly reducing the enormous inequities in wealth produced by a free market economic system.

The problem is "Spending", Local, State, and Federal. The spending is generated by people who want to control every aspect of your lives,for political gain, and to insure Insurance Companies continue to make a profit. Cut the Spending and leave the tax system where it was, and America will be just fine.

@eddiekempsr

I agree with your statement to reduce spending to a degree. Stop funding fraudulent bankers, banking practices, and AIG insurance which insures the derivative betting on assets that the better has no ownership. Derivatives should be made illegal and all debts associated with derivatives should be canceled. Repeal HR 4541 Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 which made derivatives legal and credit-default swaps (CDS), and prosecute the congressmen who voted yes on this bill that clearly destroyed the American economy.

As far as spending upon American needs such as infrastructure, single-payer health care, social security, and limited life unemployment benefits, I am all for this. Taxation was meant to benefit Americans in times of good and times of bad. It is possible to fund all of these programs without raising any taxes, simply stop and shelve the imperialistic military campaigns that are draining the American life blood to the benefit of no one. Seriously, what are we fighting for, stamping out terrorism? How many dead does it take to stamp out terrorism? How many dead terrorists does it take to reveal that we are the terrorist? The two wars or occupations are in clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act which prohibits the United States military from becoming a national police force. It is not the roll of the American government to police the world.

Let the State deal with their infrastructure, not the Federal Government. Let the State deal with their Health Care, not the Fedral Government. Let The States and the people decide what programs they choose to support with their tax dollars, not the Federal Government. I think you would be surprised how much money it would add to your paycheck. We all could come with something that the Federal and State government should pay for, but the price we pay for it in loss of freedom and liberty is just to high. I want the American People to keep their money and be able to pay for what they need. Insurance, car payments, mortgages

or what ever they work hard for, can puchase. Our Charitable nature will take care of the rest.

46 Of 50 States Could File Bankruptcy In 2009-2010. I think you do not fully comprehend the situations that the United States of America is facing at this moment in time.

1) High unemployment - Unemployment numbers are not being reported accurately. At last measure, unemployment average over all fifty states is 8.9%, double this number and you have a more accurate figure.

2) Wage Cuts – Many people who fear loosing employment are taking wage cuts. This is an unreported number, but just ask your friends, someone will know of someone who has done this. It is that rampant.

3) Manufacturing Base – Twenty years ago manufacturing accounted for twenty percent of the GDP of the United States, now that number is twelve and shrinking fast. Globalization, NAFTA, and crooked congress have shifted much of our manufacturing base to other countries where labor laws are more favorable and cheap. Tax incentives and offshore banking has made this even more attractive. Remember that remark from DC, “Americans will shift to a service industry model” Everyone can not work at McDonalds.

4) Shrinking State and Federal Revenues – Since unemployment is up and growing, business failing, banking folding, equity falling, currency inflating, wages falling, commodities disappearing, the revenues to our governments, large and small is shrinking fast and this trend will not end. The stimulus spending only postponed this inevitable out come by a year, perhaps much less. Fundamental problems are we do not protect our manufacturing base which fuels much of our economy. We do not protect businesses and we allow them to skip the country. Our government actively stifles innovation if it conflicts with the carbon venders, which could bring back the might of the USA.

5) Military Occupation of Two Countries – Never forget that we are fighting two conflicts without clear goals, ends or objectives, other than mass destruction and death of millions of innocent people. Military costs for fiscal year 2009 are estimated to be $1,449 billion dollars, see below breakdown of costs. Military spending will not lift the American economy out of a recession/depression we are no longer a major manufacturing country.

$965 BILLION

• Military Personnel $129 billion

• Operation & Maint. $241 billion

• Procurement $143 billion

• Research & Dev. $79 billion

• Construction $15 billion

• Family Housing $3 billion

• DoD misc. $4 billion

• Retiree Pay/Healthcare $70 billion

• DoE nuclear weapons $17 billion

• NASA (50%) $9 billion

• International Security $9 billion

• Homeland Secur. (70% military) $35 billion

• State Dept. (partial) $6 billion

• other military (non-DoD) $5 billion

• “Global War on Terror” $200 billion We added $162 billion to the last item to supplement the Budget’s grossly underestimated $38 billion in “allowances” to be spent in 2009 for the “War on Terror,” which includes the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

$484 BILLION

• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion

• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending,

The end of the dollar is coming; there is no stopping this fact. There is no quick fix to this problem. We are all going to be unemployed and facing some harsh winters. Sure signs to all this will be a mass migration to warmer climates and the raise of the barter system.

Oh yes I do understand and that's ecxactly what I am addressing, we are where we are because of the Government of Dependency we have allowed to be created for "The Children". They keep using this for the children tactic and we know what is best for you strategy to take more and more away from you and me so we can not do for ourselves. The problem is I may not need what you need and vice versa. Your recap of Punitive Taxation was excellent. It was not my fault that States passed silly taxes and stupid regulations that put their States out of business. It is your fault, I guess???? Maybe if we make States stand on their on two feet as my mother use to say. They will stop being STUPID!!!

This idea also solves the "drain" created by illegal immigrants on our school and health care systems since everyone has to pay.

A consumption tax, in addition to cutting the costs incurred by processing hundreds of millions of tax returns by the IRS, catches everyone.

To counter the argument that it puts an unfair burden on poor people, simply give all poverty level income, welfare and disabled benefits recipients a "reduced tax ID card" which they need to file for, and reduces their tax to an appropriate level. It could work and be fair to everyone, even those people that can't or won't work.

There was 1.3 trillion in unreported taxable income last year, we need to solve this problem and a consumption tax is the only way to do it.

It will get all the tax cheaters, drug dealers, illegal immigrants. If you are opposed to this, balanced to help the poverty stricken, you are one of the people cheating on your taxes. A fair tax can indeed be fair if it's implemented correctly.

@rg.viza - I'm sure the crew of Mexicans that just put a new roof on my house are not paying income tax.

They work as independent contractors and are paid with a 1099 on a fake SSI.

50% of the construction in America is done under the table.

Cite your reference. You are making and empirical data statement and we should have access to the source reference. It may be more fair to say that there appears to be substantial portions of American construction done in this manner.

@debdaveandpets

To use your example, the present day system is like the mob taking their cut before you even get paid. Even if you work something out with your employer to not give so much or anything at all to the mob, they'll still tell the mob how much you made and the mob will go after you until you get your cut.

I think that your "resource tax" sounds more like socialism and entitlement. With socialism you end up giving up your freedom. With entitlement everyone can become lazy.

I think that a consumption tax is the best solution. Everyone gets taxed, including the rich and any expensive luxuries they indulge in.

I am all about this topic, I prefer to refer to it as the national sales tax as it makes it easier for people to understand it. As for the rich spending proportionately less than the poor...absolutely not. The ultra ultra wealthy might but not the average $250K to $500k a year person. Also as for those complaining the poor would suffer...most agree that the national sales tax would not be applied to necessities such as staple food items. Lets face it the ultra wealthy pay most of the taxes and thankfull it will likely remain that way...so maybe put in place an income tax for the super ultra wealthy in addition to the national sales tax...starting at say the $1 million dollar income people. No system is perfect but the current system is simply unfair to everyone except the poor who pay nothing.

The result is people on welfare with 70 inch televisions because they don't have reportable income and therefore the fed doesn't have a way to capture the taxes...which is a bit annoying.

This also clears up the immigration problem.

Must be nice to have a high paying job so you can look down upon the rest of us who live paycheck to paycheck, were we spend every dime we make just to make ends meet and when prices inflate, well we can find a second, third, or fourth job to compensate. The slave class or lower to middle class is the backbone of this country. If you destroy the progressive tax system and go to a fair tax or national sales tax system, then our purchasing power shrinks accordingly. We are the tired masses who are the ones living the current depression and inflationary trend. We cannot find that extra job to make ends meet. No longer can we afford the frills that we once purchased with our excess money. Food, fuel, medical, and housing are our prime concerns.

We are unrepresented by our congress because we can not afford to pay to be heard. The system no longer represents because it only responds to money and special interests who take the short cuts that poisons our food with MSG, aspartame, high fructose corn syrup, and fluoride. Then we become sick from our foods we eat and once our for-profit insurance determines we are too much of a loss, drops our coverage to protect their shareholders bottom line. Then we liquidate everything we own, including our homes to pay the lopsided medical billing practices and become destitute. We then move in with our children’s homes and become multiple generation homes and we pray that our children do not loose their jobs. And when our children’s employers feel the squeeze, they give the employees the option, work for someone else or take pay cuts and in our fear of the uncertainty, we take the pay cuts. This scenario is working itself out, all over America. Live it, know it, you will experience it, the system in the declining days. The great fall of America.

Yes, workers are unrepresented in government. At this time the executive and legislative branches are controlled by the elite party. Read their resumes and you quickly discover that they are not workers and most have never been. They've not had real jobs and there are far too many that have failed to pay taxes.

America is not about equalizing results, it is about providing equal access to opportunity. We should never expect to get the same stuff that others get if we've not invested ourselves in enterprise, education, and charity.

About the progressive tax. C'mon - the rich do not pay taxes (I mean besides Dashcle and Geitner). If you make the guy that sells tires pay more in taxes and he figures out that the taxes are an additional $7.50 per tire, he (and his competitors) will raise the cost of tire $10 each (have to administer the tax paperwork and pay for more bookkeeping). Who just got stuck paying more in taxes?

More important in a few years more savings will be available for lending.

Interest rates will remain low due to the large amount of money available for lending.

Note - All income tax is already built into the price of everything you buy. This way of taxing will make China finally pay taxes.

Does not pay to have your money in a bank, and if you have in excess of 100k good luck. So far this year, 39 banks have declaired bankruptcy. FDIC has spent its yearly funds all rdy. States are starting to use the fractional banking system, meaning they deposit $1 billion and lend out $10 billion on low interest loans. Hyperinflation is a knocking, which makes working for a living a loosing proposition. Welcome to our baseless fiat currency, which is a debt instrument to pay a debt. Read your $1 bill, "This Note is Legal Tender For All Debts, Public and Private" it is not a store of value, it is mearly paper/coin. It sole value is the perception it carries and the quantity in use.

IF the debt slaves wake up and stop calling tax, tax and start calling it immoral theft. Taking the efforts of my life time without my permission in any way shape or form is illegal and anyone who atempts to do that should be arested by our public servants, Cops. Do not steal from me.

Perhaps these Cops you speak of would be paid by hosting bake sales or selling lemonade.

you know that would be a good idea. the public would know them better they would know serve and protect the local public better they would work for the people instead of the theives er government. Nice. But if we all protect ourselves we would need much less bake sales.