Don’t Track Users on Government Web Sites

Electronic Privacy Information Center

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I'm Not So Sure...

Very few Internet users really understand how persistent identifiers, such as “cookies,” record and track their online activities. But it is clear that when users take the time to examine this issue, they are not happy. This was clear when the White House initially proposed to make the President’s speeches available on YouTube without taking privacy into account. Changes were made, but the problem could have been avoided.

EPIC strongly favors public access to new media and the government’s innovative use of new technology. At the same time, we think it is unnecessary and shortsighted to allow government agencies to stalk citizens with persistent identifiers.

EPIC recommends that the administration extend the policy against persistent identifiers to all government web sites. The government should not be tracking the public’s access to government information.

Why Is This Idea Important?

President Obama established as a priority the collaboration between executive departments and agencies and the public. Tracking individuals who access government information would contradict these goals. The government should ensure the privacy of all citizens.

Idea # 862New Tools and Technologies, privacy, track, cookies, new media, persistent identifiers, access to information, public record, internet, technology, epic

Comments

Bryan Rosander 9 months ago

If the cookie is just for logging in, this shouldn't be a problem. Users should be able to opt out of the cookie as well.

Your solution goes way too far.

redcrystal 9 months ago

Tracking cookies are sometimes, but not generally, used for nefarious purposes, and even then, it's generally only to help marketers (sometimes spammers). It's becoming easier and easier to keep your use of the internet private, if you're so inclined, whether by using something like Internet Explorer's Privacy InPrivate Browsing, or an anonymous proxy server.
The government already has its hands full trying to get the worst of the bad guys; I don't think they're at all interested in stalking the average (privacy-ignorant) user, unless they can use that information to assist those users finding information they want.
Cookies are just a tool, and like all tools, they can be used for bad or for good. If you think our government is all bad, then learn how to use the anti-cookie tools. Or make it, as Bryan suggests, an opt-out. And if you don't trust the government to respect the opt-out, you'd better just stay off the Internet altogether.

gilwill58 9 months ago

I am happy to be a registered US Citizen. Citizenship should not be anonymous.

beebe75 9 months ago

Get used to tracking it has been here a looong time! Satelites if needed can focus on you reading a paper on a bench in the park. Most of us carry cell phones which all have gps that can Not be shut off unless you hack the phone to do so. You can be located at any time if needed! How do we know that immunization shots don't have trackers in them...after all we do have nanotechnology, and just about everyone has had one or more of these shots. Just something to think about...I don't care who knows what site I am on, but if they just asked me I would tell. Also if one is really scared of such use different computers and use aliases! I personally do Not care who tracks me...bring it on if they think they are smart enough!...lol

9 months ago

Want to correct my vote as a thumb down. Accidentally hit thumbs up and there are not sufficient user controls on this site to correct my vote. Which emphasize the point I would like to make that persistent cookies should not be banned outright - they are appropriate in certain circumstances provided that there is sufficient benefit to the citizens and there is notice, choice and control. Regardless of the technology, the focus should be on helping and empowering the citizens.

redcrystal 9 months ago

I just have to say this. Everyone brings up the "satellites can read the paper you're holding while sitting on the park bench" and it sounds scary, but you need to expand your thinking a little if this is what makes you paranoid that the government is watching everything you do.

In order for a satellite to read your paper, first, it has to be a very clear day and you need to be outside and not under a tree. It probably helps a LOT for it to be daylight.

Second, the satellite has to "zoom in". That sounds obvious, and it is. But what it implies is that it is now extremely limited in the overall size of the actual ground with you in it that it can capture. That is, if you are standing in a football field, and the satellite shows you standing on the 50-yard line with your newspaper, what it can totally miss is the 500-person marching band on either side of you, because it's "zoomed in" so tight that the rest of field is out of the frame of the picture.

Third, and this is the most important one, there are not a million of these satellites with their cameras pointed down to earth. There are maybe a few dozen. Maybe close to a hundred, but I seriously doubt it. Even if there were a hundred, there's only going to be one or two max that are near enough to you to see you. Now. These things cost hundreds of millions of dollars to put up in orbit. They cost millions of dollars a year to keep running. Let's say 5 million (I made that up, but it's probably not wildly wrong). That means it costs nearly 14,000 dollars a day to run. Paychecks to engineers, analysts, electricity, replacement parts for the communications equipment and the tracking systems and the data storage computers and so on.

Now, I know a lot of people think the US government can spend all the money it ever wants without for a moment considering the cost, but that's nonsense. If the government kept a million of these satellites up, just so they had enough for every 306 citizens (and which of those 300 should they track? and for how long?), it would cost 14 billion a day, or 5 trillion dollars a year.

Just so they tell whether you are reading the New York Times or Rodong Sinmun (the newspaper of North Korea) and make a little mark against your possible patriotism checklist. Really? This is how you think the government really spends its money?

So every mass-applied technology works a little like this. Not to this extreme, obviously, but it adds up very quickly. You think Enemy of the State (the movie) shows what they're really doing at the NSA? You clearly have no idea how many things can go wrong with technology -- proprietary systems, special configurations of dozens of "standards", not to mention just plain glitches and bugs --, and that is for people who are highly motivated by a lot of money to get things to go right.

I agree we need to watch our government closely. Who watches the watchers? We do. But if we blind our watchers so that they can't tell who they are watching, I don't think we make them more effective at watching for those in our midst who should be watched. We need sense and practicality, not fear and ideology. Let the government do its job efficiently and openly, and maybe they'll find a way to save some money to use toward finding real bad guys in our midst. They certainly want to badly enough; after all, WE ARE ALL the government.

beebe75 9 months ago

What I meant by the statement of they can see what you are reading, is that we Do have the technology to do so. It may not be used on everybody, but it is used! Further more our government and most likely every government tracks and stores information. Did you know that many people have files on them? Even more so if one speaks about peace, or whatever is against war and greed based organizations. I believe that we are all tagged in one-way or another. Just about everybody now days has some form of gps. Cars, cell phones...etc. Did you know that speakers could be used as microphones? On your TV. Sure it is considered a conspiracy idea, but is it really conspiracy? Chances are is that it is Not done to everyone, but I think many are Not in the know of themselves being monitored for unjust causes. Causes for fear of losing money. I speak out against pharmaceutical drugs, as there are other options to these. We do however live in a society that is supposed to be free, but if so then why do most insurance not pay for anything other than pharma meds? We are all stuck in this system of control with out health. Same thing with certain cell providers and Internet providers. Most if not all can be accessed for information purposes if need be. Proprietary systems include things like OS and phone technology, and things that usually have patents on them, however these things are most often manipulated and used for information gathering. Do many people know that a lot of big corporate giants are in the grasp of government use? These big corporations are sometimes dummy companies for doing these things, or are just plain in denial of such going ons! Our phone lines are monitored as well as Internet chat for certain key words. They are then flagged at different levels. This to me is ok for national security, but what about those that abuse their power in doing so? If I was using the internet to search for medical cannabis use, and my computer was logged as looking for such, am I considered by the government to be a drug user even though it is Not a drug and is used for health reasons; when no other pharma drugs work well? Our government is supposed to be We the People, yet We the People have no say in how many of our current policies, rules and laws are set up. When was the last time you filled out a survey from a political office other than just before election time? They usually rely on constituents to call or email about issues, but I figure why are we working for them, when they should be working for us? As to Us watching the watchers...did you know that to do some of the things needed to do so, that it is in some cases illegal? For example one cannot track or trace a politician, or law enforcement phone call or email without committing a federal crime. Yet they can track us without just cause! I would not believe it myself, but I have seen the proof. I am in No way against the government or paranoid of the government, but I am Not for corrupted government! Our government spends millions and even billions or dollars on top-secret black projects. How do we know that our tax paying money (which is funding) is being spent in good faith. Why are we spending money on weapons and destruction, and not on defense things that would immobilize these weapons? We DO have the technology, but since suppression seems to blanket our government and the world, these things do not come about. A good example is Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla. Many are taught in school about Edison, but not many are taught or even know of Tesla. A lot of Tesla tech is in use today and much more will come about with time. He made robotics, neon lights, ac brushless motor, the tesla coil, wireless technology, radio, and many more things possible. Free energy could have been possible, but to get rich utility companies kept that from ever happening. I am disgraced by how many people in our world seem to revolve around money instead of love and well-being! Most seem to have love for money, and that to me is really sad. Sorry if I strayed off subject a bit, but I feel that all of these issues tie in together in one way or another. May we all eventually see the truth and really be Free! Peace to you all worldwide!

redcrystal 9 months ago

@beebe75

I sympathize with your desire for an absolutely and provably free and open society. It would be a wonderful thing.

Unfortunately, such a society can never happen, so long as there are human beings. Don't get me wrong; I love the world, the people in it, and I have great faith that We The People can continue in earnest to strive for that free and open society. We'll never reach it, but not because we're not trying. We'll never reach it because it's simply against human nature. It's exactly the same problem which has always meant that Marxist communism will always fail.

It's like this. Regardless of which kind of society you have -- socialist, or communist, or capitalist -- and regardless of how you run it -- democracy, or republic, or monarchy, or whatever -- people will be people. Not that they're bad. They're just doing what people do.

Bear with me, I'll see if I can explain it with an allegory.

It starts with me being employed by a great company. One of the reasons it's a great company is that they give us, the employees, a great deal of trust. They require every employee to pledge that we will uphold the trust given to us -- to be truthful and honest in all our dealings with the company.

Now let's say that my twin brother works at this company, too, and he does exactly the same job I do, and we were both hired on the same day at the same company. We're both lucky to work there.

However, our personalities could not be more different. I'm a father. I want the best for my wife and kids and do my best to provide for them. He's not a father, and he spends his salary on legal vices (cigarettes, booze, porn, gambling). I like to think I'm an honorable person. I tend to think of my brother as selfish and stupid. He's taken a lot of money from me with no real interest in paying it back. He has even hurt other people, but so far has not done anything illegal.

My brother resists every attempt I make to get him to clean up his act. After a while, I'm not going to try to make him care. Instead, I'm going to see whether I can take BETTER care of my family by doing what he's not willing to do. I will think myself the better man for doing so.

My kids are smart and should go to college. They have fantastic talents that should be cultivated. I find I always have to tell them, "we don't have the money yet," and I hate seeing the sadness in their eyes when I do.

My brother and I are about to go up for a promotion and a big raise, but only one of us can get the job. I'm going to do my best to make out my brother as a worthless, lazy, and undependable person who doesn't deserve the promotion. I'm going to make the case that I do deserve it and have worked harder to earn it. I'm going to do this, even though I believe his performance at work is as good as or better than mine. It works, and I get the promotion and the raise.

Why did I do this? Because I promised my family that I would take care of them, and that promise comes BEFORE the one I gave to the company where I work that I'd act with the best interests of the company.

Is this making sense so far? Personal motives almost always outweigh social agreements.

Now, I said I was honorable, and yet here, by the company's standards, I did something dishonorable. I exaggerated my performance and unfairly deprecated my brother's performance. If the company knew what I did, they should fire me (or demote me if we happened to be in a socialist/communist state), because I acted selfishly. The company is not even a little bit interested in what my brother or I do with our salaries. He could burn it and smoke it for all they care, as long as they get the most productivity for the money they spend.

Did I do the right thing? My heart says yes. My family says yes. I don't care what my brother says. The company (believing my lie) says yes. What do you think? I think it seems like, on the whole, I did the right thing.

What if that company was actually the US Government, and as a citizen, the US Government is responsible to you? Do you still think I did the right thing? What it this happened pretty frequently, not just in my isolated case, but in the thousands or more? Or what if it was a socialist or communist state? It doesn't matter, does it?

Okay, that's the end of the story.

I tell it to you because you need to understand that our problems can NOT be simplified into just a giant "The Big Corporations & Big Government vs. the hard-working, honesty-loving, down-trodden, and good-hearted People" contest.

Are there greedy corporations exploiting people? Sure. Are the people in the government with more power than they should have, abusing it for their personal gain? You bet. Can you ever make them answer to a higher standard of ethics and do the right thing? Sometimes, and sometimes not. That's just going to happen. It's not fair, because people are not always going to try to do what's fair -- they're going to try to do what they think is right, and sometimes what they think is right is not what you and I think is right. It's just how the world of human beings works.

So what do we do? I'll tell you! We quit whining about how unfair it is. We reach out to each other to encourage people with good ideas. We take responsibility for voting. We call and write our representatives. We think before we spend money or time. When we find corruption, we move to throw it out -- we don't just keep complaining that we keep finding corruption. Of course we'll always find corruption! It doesn't mean the system is totally broken. It does mean that we have faith that throwing out corruption is just another step in the right direction.

Now, back to the topic at hand, and how this fits in. You have NO IDEA how very many people there are in the US Government are fighting that good fight to keep our freedom, to secure our peace, and to make it so that as many of us can do the honorable thing and prosper by it. Are you one of them? Did you know you can be?

I design enterprise web sites for my living. Do we use cookies? You bet! Why? Is it because we're secretly harvesting all kinds of information from you about your web activities so that maybe we can blackmail you, or feed you bad information to make you pay more, or figure out how much more we can charge for our product based on what you spend elsewhere, etc.? No. We use cookies because we think that if we can offer you services which take into account what you've told us you like, then there's a better chance that you'll be happy with our service.

It's exactly the same reason that a small candy shop owner/proprietor remembers your name and your favorite brand of chocolate (or whatever!). He does it because he knows you'll appreciate the extra care he takes, and that's good business. You'll be more loyal to someone you think is honestly looking out for your well-being and happiness. A similar thing happens online. If you spend even a few minutes at our site, we'd like to take a litle extra care to know your desires so that the next time you come by, we can greet you by name and see whether you came to get your favorite brand of chocolate, which we thoughtfully set aside when we saw you coming down the street.

I'm stretching the metaphor a bit, but that's pretty much all it is. Does that benefit us? Yes. Does it benefit the small candy shop owner/proprietor? Yes. Does it benefit you? Yes. Is it an evil conspiracy to make you spend your money with us (or him)? No. Why not? Because we'd both be MORE THAN HAPPY to tell you exactly WHAT we're doing and WHY. Because it is good for both of us!

Imagine for a moment that the wording of this suggestion was phrased differently, for a less technologically-driven time:

"Very few users really understand how persistent brain engrams, such as “my memory of seeing them reading some report,” record and track their activities within other human brains. But it is clear that when users take the time to examine this issue, they are not happy.

EPIC strongly favors public access to new media and the government’s innovative use of people who can remember stuff. At the same time, we think it is unnecessary and shortsighted to allow government agencies to stalk citizens with people who remember them.

EPIC recommends that the administration extend the policy against memorization to all government workers with brains. The government should not be having memories of the public’s access to government information."

Sounds silly now, doesn't it? It's because it kind of is silly. The government is not in the business of "stalking its citizens." It is in the business of trying to help those of us who do still strongly believe in the principles embodied in the US Constitution continue to protect and honor those principles for all of us, and make it easier for those of us who are protected to stay protected.

Just because there are some bad people out there does not mean we should throw out any and all really useful tools that they might use. It'd be like making knives illegal because they're sometimes used to kill people. Not a brilliant move. Neither is forcing the government to work with its hands tied behind its back.

As I've said before, they just don't have the resources, time, manpower, money, to pursue every one of us in the hopes that they can catch us doing something bad. Will there be false accusations? Probably. There would be false accusations ANYWAY! (didn't anyone here pay attention to Senator Joe McCarthy and the Red Scare? They sure didn't use "persistent identifiers" back then!).

I repeat: if you are really, truly committed to freedom and peace, then STOP WHINING ABOUT HOW YOU ARE LOSING IT, and START WORKING /WITH/ THE YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEING CITIZENS IN THE GOVERNMENT WHO ARE TRYING TO KEEP IT FOR YOU! If all you can do is whine, then at least keep it to yourself and the people who love to whine with you, because I really only want to hear from the people who are actually DOING something to keep their freedom.

beebe75 9 months ago

@redcrystal

First off I mean no disrespect in this post to you in anyway personally! I did not realize that I was whining? I was only stating ideas, thoughts and facts! I DO work on our freedoms and upholding them, and I DO NOT wish to argue as it does no good...besides I am not a politician. I write, email and call many in our government, and I could tell you things that you may not believe or understand. Then again you might? The only thing in your reply that I truly disagree on is, 'such a society can never happen'. I believe in positive thoughts, and that thinking positive will bring positive. It's the same, as thinking negative will bring negative. Have you ever been in a negative phase and attracted others in the same state of mind? If we all think that it won't happen...it won't! People seem to be more worried about the so-called almighty buck, and not about the well being of each other. To those that think helping one another is non-democratic, think again. I believe we are not a true democracy; as many of our rules, laws and regulations are Not upheld for everyone. Think about Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Did our forefathers write that for only the rich, or maybe only the corrupted? I think not, it was meant for All in America. There is nothing wrong with being rich, but when you screw over others including your own customer, that to me is very Un-American! I reread your post a few times to see if I was missing something, but it seems that you are. In my post I only stated that it is possible to track with a satellite, I never said that we are all being tracked by satellite. Those who produce or look into obtaining weapons and drugs are probably the most watched, but those who speak out in peace during times of war are also sometimes, if not always looked at. A good example is John Lennon. Why would the FBI have files on a musician/artist who speaks of peace love and humanity? So they had a file…so what? It is just information gathering as I have stated already. Governments gather information so that they can be in the know. Although sometimes the information is incorrect, sometimes it is not! It seems we also have different meanings of the word family, because I would not lie to get ahead of my brother or anyone else. It would mess with my conscience too much. If I truly am a good worker (and I am), I have no doubt in my mind that I will get any position that I seek. Some cookies are used for tracking information as well as sneaking in worms, spy ware and such, but not all of them do that! The ones that are, were created by computer people that have nothing better to do, but make problems for others. I also did not state that all software companies are tracking, but that some are for illegal and greed based purposes. I would go into more detail and name names, but I do not wish to live in federal prison! Talk about taking things out of context and meaning …"The Big Corporations & Big Government vs. the hard-working, honesty-loving, down-trodden, and good-hearted People" contest. First off life is Not a contest. Life is about learning, as well as business. Not all big corporations are misguided, and not all politicians are misguided. Some I believe start out to do good, but then things get to them and they get entwined in the big scheme of, the more the merrier with money and such things. Power hungry and greed based to me can still be learning, but one must learn the good from them. Many it seems do not…I say seems as that is what it appears to me; as from talking with some of these people and seeing them act the way they do. I over analyze and I over think quite a bit, and yes sometimes I can over look things as can anyone else. I often reread things to make sure that I fully understand, and know that there is no such thing as a stupid question. This site was set up to get the opinions, ideas and thoughts of we the people so that we can all get along and seek Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness! As far as unfair...do you like footing the bill for illegal things that are done? Suppression is big in our country, as many of us are kept in the dark. Why is there no way to see where every penny of our taxpaying money goes? Do you balance your checkbook by not knowing what is in your account? Do you like paying for health care and car payments for others when you have nothing? Do you like paying for healthcare twice? Something to think about, if you have insurance now, you are paying twice! We the government, which is; government of the people, by the people, and for the people …need to stand up and speak out and let true freedom ring. For all are created equal, and it is their choice to choose to take it! I choose to take it with the well being of all in my sights! Even the corrupted should have rights, as they need to learn too. Thank you for taking the time to speak your mind, as I hope others will do to. So I will end with Peace, Love and Empathy…and ‘There are no problems, only solutions.’

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